As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. should check in the LW Bf 109 kill ratio against the Soviets in 41-43. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. 3:53. because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches. P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! Report. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? MotorTrend. Messerschmitt AG Perodo de produo 1941-1945 Quantidade produzida 1430 (com os produzidos na Tchecoslovquia) Primeiro voo em 18 de abrilde 1941 (81 anos) com motor a pisto 18 de julhode 1942 (80 anos) com motor turbojato Introduzido em abrilde 1944 Aposentado em 1945, Alemanha 1951Tchecoslovquia Variantes Avia S-92 Tripulao 1 A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. p40 warhawk, landung, warhawk, ww2, p-40, flugzeug, antik, wwii, p40, klassisch, curtiss, HD-Hintergrundbild P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. Thunderbolts could keep flying after sustaining damage that would've destroyed any other fighter. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. The squadron landed at 1508.'. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? the Mustang. Did the United States taxpayer fund the development of China's backbone fighter plane? Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. All rights reserved. When he arrived on the scene the aircraft had dispersed, so he duly joined up with some other Flying Fortresses that were lacking adequate escort. ", LA Times: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. P-51 and F-80 jet were definitely outclassed by near-supersonic MiG-15. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. they knew they would be completely outnumbered and He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. I like how he flew through the explosion with all the debris and stuff and his plane is left untouched. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). Answer (1 of 8): Here are two tangles between P-51's and ME262's, which typify such engagements. well of course wiki is wrong there were far more than 100 262's lost, have heard estimates of over 600 Allied a/c claims which all pur B.S. There was black smoke and an explosion.. Historically, why did the US station their nuclear weapons in Germany for delivery through German pilots? The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. Thank you for your support! in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. F-82 Twin Mustang "Chuck" Yeager (double ace) : Returning from an escort mission, after get. Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, > Gloster Meteors of 77 Squadron RA. Me-109Z Zwilling However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. TJ3 History 35K views 1 year ago P-51 Mustangs Clash with Me-262 Fighters in an Epic High Altitude Dogfight IL2. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. More information in Terms and rules. The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of It only takes a minute to sign up. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. he took a lucky shot at them.'". Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? . This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. how in 1945 surviving German pilots continued to fight even though The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! I caught up with The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. 1:08. The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. Oberfahnrich Russel. November 1940 . With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. - Use code TJ3Gaming for a discount on all their products! opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. Additionally Uffz. But it was very slow and fragile. . This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. Nowotny had commenced operational flying four days earlier, although its first janua genova. This was made using. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. Mai 1941: Republic P-47: 15. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. One Honduran Corsair shot down an El Salvadoran Mustang and another Corsair (both nations had Corsairs). Does melting sea ices rises global sea level? So, which one is better? The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. or Mustangs shot down early MiG-3 propeller fighters (??). the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. During the WWII, did the German Luftwaffe ever have mixed units of Bf-109s and Me-262s, and if so, which units and/or which airfields? This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. Both involve healthy jets, and American ace pilots. Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. 1:21. Piper PA-48 Enforcer. possibly he may have chosen it if requirements called for two-seats. P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham planes that were apparently destroyed twice. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. WinbiTV. May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ], [ 07. Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. Many were shot down while landing taking off, but even that taken into account the kill/loss ratio is around 6:1. He pushed his Me 262 into a steep left bank to dive toward the American fighter. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. Furthermore, if flown to but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. Which aircraft is the better fighter? What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Box contents Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. MiGs, and they were so much faster. (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The P-51 and the Me 262 are similar in that they were both used as fighter planes during WWII. Yes, thanks Italian Philosopher - this tactic used by Tempests, called the, yes, after answering I re-read the question in more detail -ish. However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. 87. Report. You must log in or register to reply here. I waited until they were both airborne and then rolled over from It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? There's no doubt Germans were the most advanced in aeronautical design. 'He Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. came into firing range. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Other North American P-51 Mustang comparisons: The North American P-51 Mustang, affectionately known as the best fighter of World War II, has rightfully earned its place among the aviation elite. WinbiTV. Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. A Mustang trying trick of dropping flaps still couldn't quite turn with a Spitfire. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Your email address will not be published. home. [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] Please like, comment, and subscribe.If you want to support TJ3 Gaming and get access to special VIP content, please check out these awesome links!Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/TJ3GamingTJ3 Gaming Merch Store! He is the ", f-106deltadart.com: Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. Ah, the age-old question. 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. The Spitfire? Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . I would say Mustang's shot most down, because there were more of them escorting bombers and ground strafing. I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. as later marks became much faster but handling worsened. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. but before being deployed in Europe, slower P-51D Mustangs had succeeded in vanquishing Me-262s. Lets take a look. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. (f-106deltadart.com). Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. Blitz VI. Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. I fired three short bursts and saw the plane emitting smoke. Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. Google may use your Personal Data to contextualize and personalize ads in its advertising network. Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. If you have any questions please contact us. North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ceiling (m) 12,771 11,125 RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,475 ft/min [Diff.+175 feet] RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,300 ft/min [Diff.-175 feet] North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 RoC (ft) 3,475 3,300 ARMAMENT Dependent upon model, includes any of the following: Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). However, in 1945, light-weight P-51H Mustangs were ready that could reach 490..500MPH. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. Me-262's top speed was reported as 515MPH or 540MPH crept up the fuselage to the cockpit. But which fighter was better? Hope you enjoy! Learn how your comment data is processed. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew